Just received a comment from a passionate reader Trang over at the post The History and Evolution of Pho: A Hundred Years’ Journey. She says:
This is such a wonderful article !! I came across one of the most exciting article I have ever read !! I’m vietnamese myself but I do not know most of the stuff you mention above ( What a shame
but thanks to this, I learned many new things today and discover this wonderful blog. It is true that to a purist and Pho connoisseurs, the south Pho literally taste like hell. The southerner put way too many sugar in every of their dishes, and that, include Pho. Pho in the States taste like trash to me… as a Hanoian, it taste nothing like the Pho I had back home, and sometimes I came across menu that have Seafood pho, I’m just completely speechless. Not to mention the thickness of the noodle is different too. To me, if one hasn’t tried the North Pho, then they have not yet eaten the real thing
but thanks to this, I learned many new things today and discover this wonderful blog. It is true that to a purist and Pho connoisseurs, the south Pho literally taste like hell. The southerner put way too many sugar in every of their dishes, and that, include Pho. Pho in the States taste like trash to me… as a Hanoian, it taste nothing like the Pho I had back home, and sometimes I came across menu that have Seafood pho, I’m just completely speechless. Not to mention the thickness of the noodle is different too. To me, if one hasn’t tried the North Pho, then they have not yet eaten the real thing So here's my reply to Trang:
@Trang: Thank you for the comments. You sound like a pho purist and there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, without purists, who knows what will happen to Vietnamese pho right? Also I’m totally with you on the seafood pho thing.
I must say though, the Southern style pho was what started this wave of pho popularity around the world in the first place. Without Southern Vietnamese refugees, I doubt if pho can become as popular as it is today outside of Vietnam. Vietnamese from South Vietnam were the ones taking pho to America and to other parts of the world back in 1975, and many of the subsequent generations don’t understand this. The reality is it makes total sense that Southern pho is growing strong, and most Americans do like this pho because they “grew up” with it in America.
I do like the Northern style pho myself. But as a restaurateur and a pho consultant, I’d have to say that the Southern style pho has much more mass appeal. The Northern pho needs some serious marketing before it comes to anywhere near the volume the pho from the south is doing. Still, I don’t think it can unseat what’s already considered the Vietnamese pho that’s served in the United States, Canada, Australia and other countries.
So what do we do?
There's little argument that Pho came from North Vietnam. Personally I like Northern Pho very much. It has its purity, simplicity and deliciousness all its own. But the state of pho today is what it is, that is, many people around the world know the Southern pho as the de facto Vietnamese pho. Many non-Viet diners actually grew up eating this style of pho. A few people may visit a local pho restaurant that claims to make Phở Bắc, or actually visit North Vietnam and Hanoi on their travel and have a chance to eat Phở Bắc there. So it really doesn't matter because the vast majority of pho restaurants around the world serve the Southern style.
I'm actually in the same boat as reader Trang in a way, and have a similar conundrum. Where pho purists (read, northern Vietnamese) feel ashamed of and maybe even irritated at what's happened to their beloved pho, I also have to cringe every time I think or hear about where pho is heading with all the seafood pho and "fusion" pho being offered by Vietnamese restaurants, or similarly about the many non-Viet food establishments offering their own versions of Vietnamese "banh mi".
The fact that I and many other Viet have to accept is, once an ethnic cuisine has gone mainstream or somewhat mainstream in America, it's really out of your hands. It now belongs to the mass and you can't do anything about it. Vietnamese Pho is the exact food that is going through this transformation.
What's your opinion? Please take a poll and share your comments below.
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You probably haven’t been to Europe because here in Germany the northern pho (with more substance and less unnecessary ingredients) is the main type that’s served. The world isn’t just America you know 🙂 I cringed when I got a bowl of pho in NYC Chinatown too. Luckily when I visited the Bay Area there are tons of northern style Vietnamese restaurants with very authentic taste. The last time I visited Ho Chi Minh, the northern style was surprisingly served everywhere too.
One interesting fact to mention: the most popular Vietnamese dish in Europe is bun cha (another Hanoi favorite). You probably heard of it from Obama’s trip there last month.
@David: Thanks for your comments. Time has changed quite a bit actually. Up until recently, pho outside of Vietnam have been made and served strictly by refugees and Vietnamese who left the country and communism. Pretty much all of these restaurateurs are from South Vietnam, and therefore they make the commonly known southern style pho to sell in North America, Australia and Europe.
I see the recent proliferation of Northern dishes to other countries are the result of 2 things. One, competition is stiffer now in a given market to serve new and more interesting food, so restaurateurs want to differentiate themselves from the rest of existing Viet restaurants with “new” dishes from North VN; and two, diners outside of Viet Nam are now more knowledgeable and accepting of new types of cuisines, and this includes North VN cuisine.
Time will tell what will stick and what will go away. One thing I know for sure, Vietnamese food still has a lot to offer the world, and this may be a start of another “wave” of Viet foods going abroad.
By the way, bún chả Hà Nội is pretty much the same thing as grilled pork with vermicelli (bún thịt nướng) which is already popular in South Vietnam. Of course I’ve heard of it. Obama just helped make it more known to the unfamiliar. Peace.
– To David’s point I can confirm that pho restaurants in Ho Chi Minh City where I live now all follow the Hanoi style.
– Also Europe, especially Germany, Poland and Czech Republic, seems to have more Northern Vietnamese immigrants who came as guest workers during the Cold War. They have spread across Europe after the fall of the Berlin Wall. I have never been to a Vietnamese restaurant in Europe that did not serve the Northern cuisine.
– I can also confirm that at least in Prague, bun cha was very popular while few people know pho.
@Jachym K.: I’ve not been to Saigon in the last few years, but I think pho restaurants there “all follow the Hanoi style” is a bit of an exaggeration, don’t you think?
I don’t dispute the fact about Viet people in Soviet bloc countries during the Cold War, but the fact is those “guest” workers were probably mostly Northern Vietnamese, so if they had a chance to open restaurants after the downfall of communism there, they would naturally serve Northern Viet food. I think this is true of all people any where. However, because your first point is somewhat questionable, I would say your second and third points are a person’s opinion and not necessarily the fact.
just go the HCM and look for Pho Nam Dinh.. thats authentic pho … dont say northern style Hanoi style still sucks… just ask commoners for Pho Nam Dinh.
Pho in Europe is still far from original Pho Nam Dinh..
Pho in NA is very far from whats called Pho…
Many people wants to argue authenticity.. but please try it at the place of origin… Most of the Pho in NA cannot be called Pho… the recipe they used is just part of the original recipe, and then they used their own skills to complete the original recipe… The refugees in NA only immitated Pho… but please visit vietnam ask locals for Pho Nam Dinh.. or go to Nam Dinh ill give you addresses for true authentic Pho places that have been there for few decades. Many of them are just immitation.. but locals will always know
Visit origin place of Pho and try, dont say i have lived in Vietnam because it is very popular dish but authentic is very few… Many are just trying to make money by making it but you can taste the difference.
@VPH: I think I understand all your points made, but am not sure where the “dont say northern style Hanoi style still sucks” came from. Kind of a strange way to start commenting with gun blazing like that.
You’ve made some strong statements, but they’re pretty much non-statements in my opinion.
Example:
“Pho in Europe is still far from original Pho Nam Dinh..”
– Nice observation, but, well, why would one expect pho in Europe be the exact original Pho Nam Dinh in the first place?
“Pho in NA is very far from whats called Pho…”
– Not sure of your definition of pho, but actually pho in NA was started by Viet refugees from South VN coming to NA since 1975. By most definition, this was and still is pho being made and served by people from the given country using whatever ingredients found in a new country. You may have had some bad pho in NA recently, but one has to understand that 40+ years after 1975, pho in NA (USA and Canada) is made to serve customers in NA. It has changed and will continue to change to serve people in NA. If you’re an authority on pho so say such statement, please share credentials and we can go from there to discuss whether “Pho in NA is very far from whats called Pho”.
I don’t think many people want to argue authenticity as you said. Most people (in NA or anywhere else) just want to enjoy a great bowl of pho once in a while for a fair price and with convenience. If you do know of some great pho places in Vietnam, whether in Saigon or Hanoi, then by all means please share them. Otherwise telling someone to go to VN and THEN ask the locals then you’re really not sharing much.
There’s just one other important point I want to make about pho authenticity. People throw the word authentic pho around without really knowing or defining what it means. By my definition which I think is very reasonable, definition of pho authenticity should clearly includes list of ingredients, preparation procedures, and serving steps, plus proper identification or certification of a source that specifies that only such ingredients, preparation and serving steps are to be met to call such dish “pho”.
Authentic or not, however, it’s really up the people in a given area who actually shell out money to eat.
my point is that in most places in North America they serve so called Pho “but that is not even Pho”. If you are viet you should know what does “Pho” mean. In NA they do not use Pho.. not all places but most of places. Could it be still called Pho? if you change the main ingredient? It is called Pho for a reason… i dont mind if they add more ingredients but i do not change the main ingredient and still call it Pho.
Let me give you an example to understand my point…
If you go to restaurant you order Udon noodle soup. there should be udon noodle right? But if they serve cantonese egg noodle can it still be called udon soup? that is my concern. Vietnamese refugees in NA uses name Pho but the most important ingredient is not even there…
Use Pho name to make money and Pho popular while they still do not know that what they eat is not Pho…
I do not care about varieties of Pho of different style.. BUT at least in Europe and southern vietnam the basic ingredients are still there…
@WPH: Wow I and a few million other people in the US and Canada will respectfully disagree with your point about pho in North America is “not even pho”.
Yes I am Viet and am also a pho restaurant consultant, so yes I do know what pho means.
The problem is your statement “Vietnamese refugees in NA uses name Pho but the most important ingredient is not even there…” I’m not sure what this “most important” but mysterious ingredient you’re referring to several times actually is, and you seem to prefer to keep it a secret too. For this reason the rest of your post is kind of meaningless as I’m not even sure what you’re talking about.
If you’re referring to a very few restaurants in North America (or anywhere for that matter) who serve something that is really not pho and still call it pho, then let’s talk about those and call them out.
If you want to have an intelligent discussion then let’s put everything out on the table to discuss. Otherwise Lovingpho.com is a no-troll zone, and future posts in this thread will be moderated.